Interviewee: David Klemm (Germany & Hertford 1995) [hereafter ‘DK’]
Moderator: Jamie Byron Geller [hereafter ‘JBG’]
Date of interview: 21 November 2024
[file begins 00:05]
JBG: This is Jamie Byron Geller on behalf of the Rhodes Trust and I am here on Zoom with David Klemm (Germany & Hertford 1995) to record David’s Rhodes Scholar oral history interview, which will help us to launch the first every comprehensive Rhodes Scholar oral history project. Today’s date is 21 November 2024. And before we begin, David, would you mind, please, saying your full name for the recording?
DK: Yes, happy to. It’s David Klemm, and I’m happy to be here, Jamie.
JBG: Thank you, David. And do I have your permission to record audio and video of our conversation today?
JBG: Wonderful. Thank you. So, we are having this conversation on Zoom, thanks to wonderful technology, but where are you joining from today.
DK: I’m joining from Berlin in Germany which is also where I live and have lived for the last eight years now.
JBG: Great. And before we talk about what brought you to Berlin eight years ago, I would like to go all the way back to the beginning, and I was wondering if you would mind sharing where and when you were born.
DK: I was born in Nuremberg, Germany, a mid-sized city well known for its medieval castles, as well as the trials, obviously. Some people have heard of those.
JBG: And did you grow up in Nuremberg?
DK: Nearby, just a neighbouring smaller town.
JBG: Okay, wonderful. And what was your childhood like in Nuremberg, or nearby?
DK: I mean, I had a rather, I think, unremarkable childhood, in retrospect, nothing particularly exciting. Two teachers as parents and a younger sister, and most of the time, a family dog.
JBG: And you mentioned both your parents were teachers?
JBG: What did they teach?
DK: My father was teaching scripture, which is a subject in German schools, and my mother was a teacher for special needs children, so, children with very severe mental incapacitation.
JBG: I’d love to know, David a little bit about your own educational experiences, maybe starting with elementary school. What stands out when you think about time? And maybe, specifically, if there were particular subjects or extracurricular activities that were important to you growing up.
DK: Well, not so much in elementary school, honestly. My memory starts to get really hazy. During secondary school, what we call in Germany gymnasium – so, basically, high school – my favourite subjects were the natural sciences and maths. I was, for most of my school time, really, really poor in sports. I regularly played last for soccer team, and ended up often the goalies, which, I learned, is where the least talented player usually gets to spend the match. Later, in high school, I picked up some endurance sports and actually really found my niche there, and at the end of high school, all the through university, actually until I went up to Oxford, I competed in triathlons, which was still relatively novel at that time. I mean, there were really, really small competitions, often put together by a bunch of friends essentially on their own initiative.
JBG: What sport was that, that you said?
JBG: Oh, triathlon. Okay.
DK: So, again, I mean, relatively novel at the time, pretty crazy, and has since, obviously, become a really, really big sport and Olympic and everything. It wasn’t at the time.
JBG: How interesting. So, gravitating towards those endurance experiences in high school.
DK: Yes, absolutely. I mean, rather than frustrating myself and my teammates in any sports involving a ball, or raquet, or anything, I decided to just show my grit over long periods of time, and that worked really well for me.
JBG: You mentioned in school gravitating toward the natural sciences and maths, and I’m curious if you had a sense, when you were in high school, of, perhaps, the direction that your career would take one day or what you hoped to do when you were an adult.
DK: Not really. I mean, I guess, looking back, there were maybe some pointers. There was a period during high school – I was 15, 16 – where I had set my mind on actually starting a company together with a friend. And, at the time, I mean, we had no idea what we were doing, but we had the idea for a particular product. That was back then, when software was still distributed on floppy disks, and I’m sorry for everyone listening to this who hasn’t had a chance to meet a floppy disk. So, that used to be where software was put on and distributed, and there was a very, very ripe copying ecosystem, right? So, I mean, many people didn’t pay for software. They just copied floppy disks and then used the software free of charge, illegally. And we had come up with a mechanism for how to stop that, and we were developing that and thinking about how to commercialise it. Anyway, it didn’t ever go anywhere, but looking back, I guess 35 years later, there is an early pointer of what I might be doing later in life. So, I mean, I come from a family background where everyone had a, I guess, in the widest sense, social profession: two teachers; my sister went down the same path. And so, for me, to, after high school, say, ‘I want to do something different, I want to actually study business administration and not go into that [social] field,’ that was already quite a break with family tradition.
So, that was as far as I was going to take it, initially. And then I decided, because I had seen big German universities and felt that that wasn’t really my environment, that I would want to go to a slightly smaller setting and slightly more intimate, more of a community of students, not one of the big universities in Germany where people tended to commute rather than actually live on campus or something. So, I decided not to study in my hometown, which would have been perfectly possible, but go to study business administration at the Catholic University of Eichstätt, which is the smallest university in Germany and only Catholic, private university. And that was another real break with, I guess, what my family or my parents would have expected. It worked out really well for me. It was the absolute right thing to do, meet early on some faculty there who took a shine to me and, I mean, one of them, quite obviously, wrote me a very nice reference for the Rhodes.
JBG: I would love to talk about that experience specifically, but first, you spoke a little bit about the experience in high school and the thinking that you might one day found a business. I’m curious what it was that attracted you to the field of business administration.
DK: It was the fascination of the wider world. So, I mean, again, my setting, my background, was rather, I want to say almost provincial and, I mean, most of the people who graduated high school with me, as I saw in reunions over and over again, they live where they went to school, where they grew up. I mean, they never moved. They passed their old school every other day during that daily life. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but for me, that was not enough. I clearly wanted to move on and move beyond. I didn’t have the greatest sense of what that would be. I just decided to start moving, and I did.
JBG: And you mentioned a professor or mentor who shared the Rhodes Scholarship opportunity with you. Would you mind sharing about that?
DK: Yes. Actually, didn’t so much share the opportunity, because he had no idea Rhodes existed. He had obviously heard of the university it’s associated with. But, I mean, he was willing to support me in my endeavour to go studying abroad, which was, I mean, it was clear would only be possible with a scholarship, and I applied for a variety. So, I mean, I wasn’t self-assured enough to only apply for Rhodes. And interestingly enough, we had mandatory English classes at that university, as part of their sense of, hey, I mean, if you do business administration, you need to be able to work internationally. And the tutor for those English classes, he was an Oxford graduate, and when I came to see him with a big catalogue of scholarship opportunities available for studying abroad and asked him about this Rhodes thing, he was, like, ‘Well, go ahead and apply. Should they invite you [for an interview], you should be really proud.’ That’s how he put it.
DK: And I seem to remember there was some language test, some language requirement we had to fulfil, so, he filled that out for me. So, naturally, after I won it, I went back. He was mightily impressed, I want to say. So, I mean, the Rhodes Scholarship is not well known in Germany. It is now better known just because, I mean, there’s just generally more information available. The interest in studying abroad has actually grown tremendously and more Germans study abroad for their first degree already. So, at my time, 99% started their studies in Germany and then, during those studies, sought the opportunity of going abroad. Now many more, including my daughter, start overseas or in the UK right away and then the chance of them hearing about Rhodes is obviously much higher. So, yes, but that professor, he was actually a novelty at the business administration faculty, because he taught business ethics, and that was way before Enron and any of these scandals broke, WorldCom, at a time where not many people thought about the topic, and I found that interesting. It was a really, really good foundation, also, for economics, so, what I would call the scientific bit about business administration. And yes, I mean, when you’re interested in things you tend to be good at things, and that’s how I got the recommendation.
JBG: And you mentioned, David, knowing that you hoped to go abroad for your next degree. I’m curious if you’d spent much time abroad at that point in your life, if your travels had brought you to areas of the world that you were drawn to.
DK: No. Not really. Again, I mean, a rather modest background, so, yes, not much in the way of travelling. I keep telling my daughter, or, you know, I guess I annoy her by that point, by telling her that I was 21 years of age before I flew the first time on an aircraft, and my first time in the US was for training when I started my first job. So, I’d not been to Oxford to before. I’d been only once to London before. So, yes, for me this was life-changing in more than one sense.
JBG: And do you recall, David, the moment of learning that you’d been selected for the Scholarship?
DK: Yes, absolutely, I do.
JBG: Would you mind sharing about that?
DK: Yes. So, the Germans’ elections were run over the course of one day, and you were sitting in a room together with all the other candidates, and you were just waiting for your turn, and then you were to return back, and you wait the rest of the day for the committee then to make their decision and then call everyone back and everyone, at the same time, learned the outcome. And I remember it was, I mean, obviously, I didn’t expect it. I mean, having spoken to all the other candidates, I was sure I was in the wrong place, so, I certainly didn’t expect that. My name was the last name of those selected. The first two, it was absolutely natural to me that they were selected, again, having met them, having spent the day with them. So, I was pretty surprised, not to say shocked. And then, there’s a round of handshaking and then you find yourself outside again on the street and, like, ‘Okay, so, what’s now?’ So, it was a little weird, and obviously took a while for me to just process that that now meant, including that it wasn’t just spending a semester or a year abroad. It was a full, I mean, the opportunity, obviously, the fantastic opportunity, to spend enough time abroad to actually complete a degree, and that obviously meant I would change my study plans.
There’s a special thing in Germany that, at the time I applied, I hadn’t yet obtained my German degree. So, this was meant to be an interim [step], and now I had to figure out how that worked, and all these things. And yes, it took a while to sink in, and it was obviously a big surprise and obviously, very, very happy and excited about the opportunity, but also quite a few things to figure out. And, I mean, we’ll come to that. I’m now on the other side of that event [being part of the German selection committee], and one of the things that I’ve taken away is to make sure that, for everyone, it’s a good experience, even those who are not selected, right? So that everyone understands just being invited is a massive achievement and already, in a sense, an award, even if it’s not a reward in the end, in getting the Scholarship. And we’re putting more effort in so that people, connect, right? And obviously, it’s also easier now, 30 years later for people to connect. There are friendships, there are acquaintances that are formed on that day, and those who were selected in Germany are invited – and most accept – on that very evening to spend a dinner with the German Alumni, because they tend to use that evening also as the evening for their annual reunion. We combine the two. So, on top of the shock of being awarded the Scholarship, they [20:00] get the opportunity to meet some of the Alumni and already form some acquaintances there.
JBG: That’s really lovely, and as we move through our conversation, I would love to talk with you more about your service in selections. You shared that your professor shared with you about how happy he hoped you were to be invited for an interview and so, I love that you and your role now have helped you to really elevate what that experience is like for all of the participants, even those who don’t go on to be selected, to ensure it’s a meaningful experience for them. David, you mentioned that your family had previously, in their professional work, stayed closer to home, and so, I’m curious how they felt about you setting off for Oxford for a few years for study.
DK: Interesting. So, they were obviously very proud of me, being able to go. I mean, the first reaction of my father was, he was sad to see me go so far. So, I don’t know, maybe that’s also, at the time, a little bit the German way of always seeing the glass half empty rather than half full, but obviously, I was very excited and everything and they were proud. I mean, literally everyone knows it’s a fantastic opportunity, even if the Scholarship itself, I mean, that part, no one knew. And frankly, I didn’t fully comprehend it until I actually arrived at Oxford. So, it’s even taken me a while, and, as we had spoken about previously, I continue to realise even after going down from Oxford what a fantastic network and what a fantastic community of people it is that I became part of.
JBG: And did you travel to Oxford with your fellow Scholars who were also elected from Germany in that same year?
DK: No. In that year, it was three of us. One had actually deferred because he wanted to finish his German degree. And so, I met my fellow Scholar at Oxford, but totally different subject. He was at Christ Church, I was at Hertford. He’s a physicist, I did PPE. Also unusual, in that he had finished his German first degree and went on to a DPhil, and I hadn’t, and I didn’t make it into the MPhil in economics, which I had originally planned, and ended up doing a second BA in PPE, which, at the time, was very common. It was still the most popular thing for Rhodies to do, to study for, but particularly American Scholars. I think it has now become very unusual, and if I see the study proposals from the current applicants, no one, it’s not in their proposals anymore. I mean, it makes sense for most of them, no question. It is actually a little sad, in the sense that they miss out on something, and I didn’t realise it either when I got there. Initially, I was disappointed that I didn’t make it into the MPhil. Looking back, I realise it was the absolutely perfect thing to do. I mean, not only would the MPhil have been really, really hard for me, it also gave me an opportunity to just experience, first of all, the tutorial system, which is, I mean, that’s the reason to go to Oxford. I’ll just state it here.
Most graduate students would probably disagree, but I think that is the reason you go to Oxford, to experience that tutorial system in its full value, and it also allowed me to broaden my perspective to a very, very, great extent. I mean, I was a business administration major and a little bit of law and a little bit of economics, but now I was able to experience political thought and theories of justice and international relations and, obviously, still a number of economics subjects, but even those economic subjects, obviously, on a totally different level. I did mathematical economics, I did econometrics: so, courses that went way beyond what I had learned so far. So, a real broadening of my perspective, my horizon, and, again, the tutorial system, the famous essay writing, an experience I wouldn’t want to miss. I mean, I worked very hard during those two years. I probably, in hindsight, should have enjoyed life a little bit more, maybe enjoy some of the other exciting intellectual stimulus a little bit more. But taking full advantage of that tutorial experience, I mean, that was clearly the highlight.
JBG: Are there particular tutors that stand out when you reflect on that experience?
DK: Yes, there is. So, sadly, my economics tutor passed away, say, 15 years ago, Roger Van Noorden, actually a relatively well-known name at that time in the university. Typical Oxford don: only (in quotation marks) a first degree from Oxford, but then directly selected a fellow at Hertford and easily the smartest economist I’ve ever met. He’d be capable of following my essay argumentation while falling asleep and still picking it apart. But he was also a very influential figure within the university, because he ran the committee looking after the university’s investment, which apparently he did to such an extent that it was known as the “Roger Van Noorden Committee” while he was on it.
DK: So, a very, very impressive figure, a very, very impressive and knowledgeable economist and, yes, quite a taskmaster. It took me a while to realise that reading lists are meant to be suggestions rather than required mandatory workload.
JBG: Goodness. They can be quite long reading lists too, can’t they?
DK: Yes, they typically run to one or two pages.
DK: So, yes, after essay two or three, I realised that it’s just not possible to be reading all these things from one week to the next and then still produce an essay.
JBG: And did you live in college?
DK: I lived in college, yes. So, Hertford College, at the time, had assigned rooms for Rhodes Scholars. So, I had a natural inclination to keep the fact that I was selected as a Rhodes low profile, but I mean, if you’re required to live in a room that’s assigned to Rhodes Scholars, then obviously it’s not much of a secret. The rooms were really convenient, because they were right underneath the MCR or right on top of the MCR. So, from a social life perspective, perfect. Less so, because we were sharing bathrooms with the MCR. So, on a really, really intense Saturday night party the next morning was an “acquired taste”, shall we say.
JBG: And you mentioned, certainly, that your studies were taking up a lot of your time when in Oxford, but I’m curious how you spent that free time, if you had certain other activities you were involved in in Oxford, if you had the opportunity to travel.
DK: Yes. So, as good Rhodies do, I obviously was active in college life. [30:00] So, I was treasurer of my MCR for a year. I was engaged in one or two of the clubs and I also, obviously, met lots of the other German Rhodes Scholars and then participated in the wider Rhodes activities. I mean, it was different than it is now, in the sense that Rhodes House wasn’t a social hub. I mean, you had a Coming Up Dinner and a Going Down Dinner and then you had one first meeting with the Warden where you got your first cheque, until you set up your bank account. That was the extent of the interaction with Rhodes House for most of us, certainly for me. I understand that’s completely different now, and that’s great. That’s a fantastic development. Still, we obviously knew each other and formed connections.
JBG: Did you travel beyond Oxford during your time?
DK: I saw very little of the UK other than London on my way there, and in Oxford. And I had a friend at Cambridge, actually, at the same time, a friend who studied at Cambridge, who I got to see at Cambridge. Yes, I mean, it’s an irony that my startup has something to do with travel, given how little I’ve done.
JBG: And you mentioned that in high school and college you’d started to gravitate towards these endurance sport activities. Did that continue when you were in Oxford?
DK: No. I mean, just the normal sports stuff, but nothing organised or systematic. I mean, triathlon, it’s really hard to do if you’re not very serious, alongside normal studies, and particularly when you’re abroad where you don’t have your normal stuff and you don’t bring your competition bike and all these things. So, that gets really heard.
DK: So, that stopped there and then since then, it’s just to stay reasonably fit.
JBG: So, I’m wondering if you had to return to Germany to complete your degree after.
DK: So, after two years, I complete my degree in PPE and then I returned to Germany to complete my German degree, which was basically a few more courses and the required thesis, which in Germany at that time was, like, a six months’ project, and then, I was lucky enough to be able to be funded for a third year through Rhodes. I’m not quite sure whether that’s still possible, but at the time, that wasn’t so unusual, and I used that for a year where, again, I’m not sure whether that still works, but you were allowed to actually go to a different UK university. I spent that for a year reading for a master’s at LSE in mathematical economics and econometrics. So, two subjects no one chooses by accident. And for me, it was meant to be the first year of a PhD programme in economics. So, I was seriously considering becoming an academic in economics. So, obviously, LSE, a very well-reputed school for economics. The contrast was pretty stark in terms of focus on teaching. I mean, so much of the capacity, so much of the infrastructure, so much of the resources at Oxford go into teaching. With LSE, completely different story.
And so, I completed that degree, but it was clear to me that I wouldn’t become an academic. That year, I think, I had spent the energy I was prepared to spend on economics. And I was living in London, and so, I figured this was the opportunity to go into investment banking, I guess, at the time, a very natural choice. I mean, I reflected a little bit on this over the last days. Back when I finished university, you would go into a job, ideally a very challenging and career-defining job, and consulting or investment banking were two obvious choices. I mean, I guess, if you’d look at Rhodes Scholar careers, the majority of people did that. Now it’s different, right? I mean now, for instance, starting a business is a much more natural thing to do. Many more people do that. That was, I want to say, unheard of [during my time]. So, yes, so, I stayed in London and started in investment banking.
JBG: And did you mention that your professional career path soon brought you to the US after that?
DK: Yes. So, I worked for a US bank and that bank ran centralised training in New York. So, I got a chance to spend eight weeks over the summer of 1999 training as a first-year analyst, being introduced to the secrets of Excel financial modelling in a Midtown Manhattan ballroom. But I met a couple of people there, really interesting people, one of which became a lifelong friend and is now the co-founder of my startup.
JBG: Really? During those first couple of years of your professional life?
DK: So, I spent that time in New York, training as a financial analyst, and then worked in their London office and, I mean, saw the early days of internet and startup culture. It was right around that time, 1999, 2000. I actually then pretty quickly switched jobs for the first time to a different bank and then worked in what was, at the time, the market leading technology banking group. But obviously, also saw it then end in 2001 and saw, I guess, the winter in technology and startup culture and all these things. So, I saw the full cycle first hand.
DK: Yes. And then, in 2004, I returned from London to Frankfurt. So, my wife and I, we got married summer 1999, right when [I] started my first job, and we were thinking of starting a family and we wanted to [do] that back home. So, we returned back to Germany and she found a job there. So, that was from 2004 onwards, we were living in Frankfurt.
JBG: Great. And were you with the same company during that time, [40:00] or did you transition?
DK: Yes. So, that was actually Swiss Bank then and yes, I relocated just into a different office, really, from London to Frankfurt.
JBG: I’m curious, David, about what excited you about this work, and I’m thinking about what you shared, growing up and gravitating towards, in college, the business administration focus because of the lens that brought to the wider world, and I imagine that that chapter of your professional life did much of that as well, and I was wondering if you would mind speaking to that a little bit.
DK: I mean, of the careers available to me, or the careers I knew of, it was certainly one that was particularly international, right? One where you work for, not a British company, not a German company, you would work for a US or a Swiss bank and you would work for an organisation that is very, very international. I mean, most of the work you did, you did in English. You interacted with people from all over the world, much more than many other more traditional companies you can think of, and that was clearly something that attracted me. It also attracted me, I mean, it’s clearly, for someone with my background, particularly challenging work and you were working on things that, for your clients, tended to be pretty high-impact. So, I mean, if you take a company, in a company’s development, if you buy a company, if you sell a company or, rather, if you advise your client on buying and selling a company, that’s pretty defining for the people involved, and that just really attracted me. So, yes, that challenge, and the fact it’s typically not run-of-the-mill, it’s not business as usual, for most of your clients.
JBG: And you mentioned moving from London to Frankfurt in 2004. How long did you live in Frankfurt?
DK: Yes, from 2004 until 2016. Yes, another 12 years. So, I came back in 2004, and in 2006, our daughter was born. And then 2008, 2009 came along. Obviously, if you were working in a bank, I mean, for most people, obviously, a very stressful year in particular. And actually, during those years, [I] was at Barclays, so, finally, a British bank, and got the opportunity to build their German-speaking M&A practice.
DK: An unusual thing in a bank: I mean banks, obviously, you feel and look like a small part in a big machine, and I got the unique opportunity to actually build a group there, and a business. And the background to this is, Barclays did buy the Lehman US business in those crisis years and all of a sudden had a very strong M&A [business] in the US but nothing comparable in Europe. In Europe and Asia, they were building it organically, so, they hired people like me, who had done M&A or equities somewhere else and showed enough promise and hunger to be building it under their brand name, and that’s what I did, and, I mean, that was clearly, during my banking years, the defining experience, the ability to actually start something. I mean, now that I know how to really start a company, I know how much harder it is compared to the ways where you’re in a bank and you have, essentially, unlimited resources and you get a monthly salary and everything is paid for, but at the time, it felt like a really, really big adventure. And I did that until 2016 when I realised, now that this project was completed, it just wouldn’t be as exciting ever again.
I was in my mid-40s and I was starting to ask myself, ‘Am I going to do this for another 20 years, or do I want to try something new, different?’ And I decided for the latter and, being [strategic], I sat down and asked myself, ‘Well, first of all, what could it possibly be? Where could you be useful?’ And the second thing, ‘How do you get there?’ And that’s really where-, I mean, I had been active with the German Rhodes Alumni since 2011. That was right after the financial crisis. The Rhodes Trust was in financial difficulty. There was a real sense that they [the German alumni] had to really step up and contribute however much they could so it would continue. So, I mean, at the time, in 2011, it sounded like it might be that the Rhodes Trust had no choice but to, for instance, discontinue the German Scholarships. We organised the Alumni, we started fundraising as much as we could, which is not easy in Germany, and I was involved as a treasurer.
So, I already had the connection to Rhodes, and then I just tried. I mean, I had no idea what to expect. I just tried and reached out to Rhodes House and just said, essentially, ‘Listen, I’d love to speak to some people in Silicon Valley. I’m thinking about a career change. I’m not sure where I can be useful, how to go about that change, and are there any who are willing to spend 45 minutes talking to me?’ And pretty soon, I want to say I had, like, half a dozen connections through Rhodes, and then I reached out to Hans-Paul Bürkner, whom I knew from the German Alumni network, and he set me up with some of his colleagues on the West Coast, and I had two weeks, right there and then on the West Coast, meeting people, with frankly very little to offer other than just a few questions. And yes, that’s how I started going about that career change. And then, that developed pretty quickly into the realisation that, hey, I might not be a bad fit for a CFO in a slightly more mature startup, thinking about bigger fundraisings, when they start thinking about potentially preparing for an IPO, when they have the need for someone who can speak to an investor in financial terms, to do so, and that’s what I did. So, I quit my job. I got my first position, actually not on the West Coast – that wasn’t on the cards, the work permit just proved too hard – but for a US fund’s investment in Germany, and that brought me to Berlin eight years ago. [50:00]
JBG: Wow. I love the two questions that you said that you asked yourself, of ‘How can I be useful?’ and ‘How can I get there?’
DK: Yes, I mean, I was very cognisant that it’s a very niche skillset, as a banker, and I was also very cognisant that you’re spoiled. You’re spoiled in that you have teams of people working for you. You’re spoiled in that you’re very well paid, and most people [outside banking] wouldn’t dream of paying you anywhere near that salary. So, you really have to figure that question out: where can you be useful? And yes, are you prepared to take that step? Are you prepared to take that risk? And through those conversations, I got the sense, ‘Yes, I’m prepared to do that.’ And there were plenty of people who told me, ‘Hey, it might take you more than one step to figure it out, but you should definitely do it, if you’re not convinced that’ – going back to this earlier point – ‘you’ve already found your calling and want to do it for the rest of your life, and there’s no better time than today to change something,’ and I did.
JBG: And so, you said that was 2016, that you joined the team at that first startup?
DK: Yes. And then things, I mean developed, and these are not, I mean, some of that stuff is hit and miss. I mean, sometimes, it works, sometimes it doesn’t quite. The first one didn’t work so well. But at that point, you then make new [connections], you pick up lots of stuff, you have a completely different learning curve all of a sudden again, and you learn life without a secretary. And then one thing led to another: second position, similar, CFO for a scale-up. I invested myself, so I started learning about early stage startups, initially as an investor and then through a couple of steps I got to where I am now, which is running my own startup for close to three years now, together with this co-founder that I mentioned already.
JBG: Yes. And I would love talk about that experience. In 2022, I believe, you co-founded WeatherPromise. And you mentioned the thinking that you had during high school, with a friend, that maybe someday you would start something. I’m curious if that idea lingered in your mind throughout your career, of starting your own venture.
DK: I mean, after I’d experienced building our business within this bank, it was clear to me that I would want to go somewhere where things are happening and where things are really changing. So, it was very clear I wouldn’t want to just go to one of my clients at the time, which were large German conglomerates which are really, really proud if they grow one percentage point faster than GDP. I didn’t find that interesting or exciting. I also didn’t find it interesting because it didn’t have enough technology newness. Yes, for lack of a better word “cool stuff” to it, right? Producing some commodity, chemicals, or frankly, even, building cars, not so exciting, at least for me. So, that was clearly there. I wasn’t set on necessarily founding my own company, and I mean, at the time, I probably felt that, with my experience and my background, I’d probably have more impact at a slightly more mature startup that really needs someone with that senior banking experience. I didn’t realise that, obviously, if you want things to really go your way – and that’s something I picked up through a number of startups – if you have an expectation of how you want to work with people, if you have an expectation of how to build a company the right way, the sustainable way, if you want to see that realised, it’s very hard to go into someone else’s startup and do that, so, you probably will end up doing your own thing. So, that evolved over time.
And then, I want to say, the other thing that was really critical was the ability to do it with that particular friend. So, not having to do it on my own, having the chance to do it with a co-founder and a co-founder whom I knew for a very, very long time and had a good sense that we wouldn’t break up at the first opportunity, the first time things got tough, just because we had known each for such a long time. And then, frankly, I also want to say that maybe one thing I should add, it took me, also, a while to get to a point that I’m comfortable taking that risk. So, being comfortable saying, ‘Yes, it might not work out,’ and I’m not going to be ashamed of that. I mean, obviously disappointed, but not feeling that I’d be a failure. And being, I also want to say that, I mean, financially secure enough to say, ‘Okay, I mean, if I work for a year or two and I don’t get paid, that’s okay.’ And, I mean, I admire when people do that at a young age and don’t have that background. I mean, maybe they have it from their family, but, I mean, I think there are plenty out there who say, ‘No, I’m quite happy to take that risk,’ and I admire that. I mean, I wasn’t ready for that, so, that took a while.
JBG: So, my understanding of WeatherPromise is essentially that individuals are able to partner with WeatherPromise to that if there is inclement weather on their vacation or trip, they will be able to recoup some of their costs of that and that trip, which is such an interesting and great idea, and I’m curious about how that idea specifically came to you and your co-founder.
DK: Well, I disclaim all ownership of that idea. It was completely my co-founder’s idea. I guess my claim to fame is that he felt I’m the right person to share it with and to discuss it with and go back and forth over whether it’s worth doing and whether there’s a valuable idea there. But I mean, my reaction when he first told me about this is, ‘This is really elegant.’ This is one of the rare instances where you say, ‘Yes, I could have thought of that. That’s actually really, I mean, that, kind of, makes sense.’ There are plenty of things where you’re, like, ‘Okay, so what?’ but this, kind of, felt a little different. And I mean, I’ve learned, obviously, that the idea is 10% and the other 90% is execution, so, the hard part comes after the idea. But I mean, having a good idea that many people react to with, ‘Hey, that’s interesting, I would do that,’ so, obviously, that’s a great start. And how did he come about this? He had built an insurance startup before. [1:00:00] So, he knew about insurance, he knew all about the regulatory and economic challenges around it, and he had seen that in insurance, there’s very little innovation, and really, the one place where there is innovation is around what’s called parametric insurance.
So, [in parametric] insurance, whether or not there is a payout, is determined by objectively observable third-party data as opposed to you writing to your insurance: ‘Hey, I scratched my car. Can you please pay for the paint job?’ So, something that, independently, can be verified. And of all the areas where that’s interesting, weather is quite interesting in that, yes, there’s plenty of data. If you know what you’re doing with that data, you can verify things, and because there’s no claims process and there’s no humans involved and it can all be automatic, you can actually provide insurance at relatively low ticket prices, because your overhead is so small, and that’s the really interesting piece here. You can provide that insurance to someone for 50 dollars, because you don’t have to spend money on people handling it manually, handling claims manually.
JBG: That is really interesting. I hadn’t thought about the-,
DK: Well, I’ve spent three years on it. I mean, I must be coming up with one or two original thoughts by now on my [own] startup.
JBG: It’s so true, though, that the weather industry is uniquely non-human in terms of short-range impact. Before we started recording today’s conversation, we talked a little bit about the two chapters of your career, and I’m curious about how you found just the day-to-day in the current chapter you’re in, as compared to that first chapter.
DK: Okay. I mean, obviously, there are a couple of things. I mean, first of all, I work in an office when I want to work in an office and I work from home when I work from home. No one’s asking me, I don’t have to come to an office, I don’t have to be in an office. And obviously, just being present, face time, doesn’t matter at all. I work with much more technology, much more advanced than anything I’ve ever seen in a bank. So, right before I left [banking], they replaced my desktop computer, and the reason they replaced it wasn’t because I was complaining it was getting slow. The reason they were replacing it was that they needed to upgrade it because that Windows version that was running on that machine wasn’t supported by Microsoft anymore, and for regulatory reasons, banks cannot run software that’s not supported by Microsoft anymore, because at that point, it becomes a security risk. So, they had absolutely no interest in my user experience. They had absolutely no interest in me having a powerful machine to be faster or more efficient. The only reason they spent money is because they had to, and lots of banks approach technology that way. So, I mean, one of the things that I clearly felt working there is that I was missing out on a lot of [interesting developments]. Now, if something new comes along – I mean, a year and a half ago, ChatGPT [for instance] – of course I can use it. I mean, it’s my company. I decided to use it and we use it a lot, for lots of things, and that’s actually quite interesting. I don’t work fewer hours, not at all – much to the frustration of my family – but I work them differently. So, I’m mostly much more flexible and I have a lot more freedom to work when I want, much less dependent on other people’s schedules. But obviously, I mean, for it to be successful, we need to put the hours in.
JBG: I’m curious, David, at this point in your career, with a really successful and impactful first chapter of your career behind you, and in the midst of this relatively new but still quite established second chapter, what you would say motivates and inspires you on a day-to-day basis.
DK: It is the intellectual challenge. That’s the interesting thing. I mean, there are a couple of other things that are really, really nice. I mean, we have a very international team here. Some of the team members were able to come to Germany because we offered them a job [and work permit with it], and obviously, that goes both ways. I mean, for us, it’s very attractive, but for them it’s also very attractive, the ability to come here. But yes, it’s the intellectual challenge. It’s something new. It’s something that hasn’t been done before, and cracking it and learning and seeing things and not being limited there, that’s the big privilege in that setting, it really is.
JBG: Wonderful. And you mentioned a little bit throughout our conversation about your family – I think you mentioned your wife and your daughter – but I was wondering if you would mind sharing more about your family.
DK: Yes. No, happy to. So, my daughter has finished school this past summer. I mean, there’s a parallel here: she wanted to spend a year abroad during high school time and that was back and forth and things fell apart. It was during Covid and it was really, really tough. And in the end, we decided, or she decided that, she wanted to spend a year at boarding school in the US, and this co-founder I already mentioned, they helped us pick a school and find a school for her. And it was initially meant for a year, just as my study abroad time was initially meant to be just a year, but she liked it so much that she decided to actually finish off her high school time there. So, rather than just spending grade ten there and coming back to Germany and doing the German Abitur, she decided to spend, in total, three years at boarding school in the US and finish the high school diploma. So, she did that last summer, and she’s now a freshman at Boston College.
DK: So, there are some parallels here. They all came about by happenstance. So, I mean, the extended study abroad, the studying at a Catholic university – Boston College is Jesuit Catholic, I studied at a Catholic university. So, we’ll see what else comes in terms of parallels. For the record, we’ve not pushed her to that. Those were her choices.
JBG: Great. That’s really lovely. And what is she studying? Does she know yet?
DK: She hasn’t declared a major yet. So, she’s a freshman. There might be economics in the mix. Let’s see.
JBG: Wonderful. And do you have other children, David?
DK: We have one daughter.
JBG: Okay, lovely. And as we move into the final segment of our conversation, I would love to ask you a few questions specifically about the Scholarship and the Rhodes community, and my first question being, you have maintained a tremendous friendship with the Rhodes community, and thinking specifically about some of the items that you’ve talked about, about your selection service and your service with the Association of German Rhodes Scholars, your very generous and longstanding support of the Scholarships in many other ways, and I was wondering if you would mind sharing what has inspired you to stay connected with the Rhodes community in those ways.
DK: Well, I mean, as I said, [1:10:00] getting awarded the Scholarship was life-changing, for me. I mean, I might have been able to abroad through other means, but in that form, in that depth, in that intensity, that was only possible with Rhodes. So, it wasn’t just another item on my CV. It was a truly unique opportunity. So, that’s definitely one thing. I also told you that, as probably many Rhodes Scholars, I have a little bit of an imposter syndrome. But more importantly, I really enjoy meeting other Rhodes Scholars. I mean, they’re really interesting people, in whatever field they are in, and that is a pretty unique group, and it’s a privilege to be part of that, and it’s inspiring. I mean, that sounds a little bit trite, but it is. I mean, the selection committee is a meaningful amount of work every year. I mean, not so much for the normal committee members, much more for the national secretary, obviously. But that work is worth it, because you see the next generation and you see awesome talent. It’s really humbling, because, I mean, you naturally ask yourself, ‘At what point was I, aged 21, 22?’ and certainly, not at the point that many of these candidates are now. So, that’s really, really humbling, but, again, inspiring. I mean, you see that it continues, right? There’s a next generation and it’s even more impressive, and they all have something they want to do, they all have something they want to achieve, and I think, yes, it’s a great privilege to be helping some of them a little bit along the way.
JBG: Lovely. And thank you so much, David, for your service and support and continued friendship with the Scholarship.
JBG: So, you shared about the experience of the Rhodes Scholarship being life-changing, and I was wondering if you would mind expanding on that a little bit and sharing about the impact that the Scholarship had on your life.
DK: Well, I mean, as I said, obviously just studying abroad, like, getting the chance to study at that university, a completely different world than I had-, again, it might be a little bit different today because there’s so much more access to information, but I mean, I’d never met someone who went to Oxford and, I mean, it probably would have taken another 20 years to meet someone. It was a completely different world. All of a sudden, it was a global perspective to my career, which there wasn’t really beforehand. It was meeting, so, rather than being really good at what you do, and typically, in whatever setting I was in, being among the very top of your class, year, or whatever, all of a sudden you’re, like, ‘Wow, there’s really no limit here. Just, like, I mean, there are Nobel Prize laureates coming to give talks, and that is a pretty normal thing. You know, there are plenty of professors who are Nobel Prize laureates at Oxford.
So, it’s just different, it’s just really different, and I mean, I was actually fortunate that we had a professor who was thinking about business ethics at my German university. I had heard about Robert Nozick and John Rawls. But then, you actually get to meet Robert Nozick at Oxford, because when he comes to Europe to give a talk, that is one of the universities he comes to, and all of a sudden, you’re, like, ‘Okay, well, this is not just a book, this is not just an author, this is actually real.’ Now, again, today, this is a little different, because today, everyone can listen to Michael Sandel’s (Massachusetts & Balliol 1975) lectures at Harvard through YouTube or an online course, but still, I mean, obviously, in reality, with the ability to ask questions and everything, you get a different experience, and this was, for me, realistically, the only opportunity to experience that. So, yes. I mean, and I realised, when I came to Oxford, for many of the other scholars, just the label ‘Rhodes’ is a huge difference. That never really played of a role for me, because in Germany, very few people know [of] it, and I don’t think I was ever asked during an interview. That just never came up. And so, that part was not really that important.
But obviously, as I said, the network subsequently and the ability to meet people and, kind of, have the-, I mentioned it to someone just the other day during the German selection: I mean, the power of being able to reach out to someone, having a pretty good chance of getting 30 minutes of their time, just by virtue of being a [fellow] Rhodes Scholar, and the other person’s expectation that you’re a reasonably interesting person. Now, you can blow it in the 30 minutes, and then they won’t talk to you again, but you get those 30 minutes. And, I mean, I’ve done the same thing. I mean, I’ve had Scholars reach out to me who are coming to Berlin and just ask whether I’m open to meet them for a coffee, and I did, when they’re in town, and they get a tour of the city [from me]. So, I’m doing the same thing, and it is fantastic. For that, it’s a really, really, really cool community to be part of.
JBG: That’s really lovely. So, we’ve just celebrated the 120th anniversary of the Scholarship last year, and so, it’s a really natural opportunity to reflect on the history of the Scholarship, which is one of our hopes for this project, to capture the individual stories of Rhodes Scholars, but it’s also a really good opportunity to look ahead to the next chapter of the Scholarships. And so, I would love to know what your hopes for the future of the Rhodes Scholarship would be.
DK: Well, I mean, maybe let’s start with what it should continue to be, which is bringing people together at Oxford and enabling them to meet and make connections and then go off and live their lives and hopefully maintain some of those connections, for, I mean, whatever purpose, but hopefully for a variety of good purposes. What I find interesting is, obviously, the geographical expansion [beyond] the original countries. I mean, if you were to set this up today, you’d probably pick slightly different countries than the original countries, just as a reflection of the way the world has developed, too. So, I think geographic expansion makes a lot of sense. And I also think that what I find really interesting is the effort to be [1:20:00] more of a hub and more of a community while people are at Oxford and then also expanding that beyond the time at Oxford. And obviously up to every individual Scholar whether they want to take advantage of that but those that do find that really valuable. Yes, so, I find that interesting. I find the variety interesting. I think the development, it’s both excellent academics, but also people who take up a cause and pursue that with energy and passion. I think all of that is-, they’re good. They’re [all] good developments. I mean, I hope that university can maintain its standing. I mean, I think, if anything, that’s probably the bigger challenge, after Brexit. Yes, so, let’s hope for the best there.
JBG: And finally, I would like to ask if you would have any words of wisdom or advice that you would offer to Rhodes Scholars.
DK: Oh, that’s hard. I mean, who am I? Yes, I mean, take advantage of it. Don’t be afraid if you haven’t quite figured it out. Don’t think you need to know everything in your early 20s, and give yourself the opportunity to explore. And back to – right? – there’s nothing wrong with a second BA. And yes, if you can, live some of that nostalgia while you’re there, rather than only experience it afterwards.
JBG: That’s lovely advice. Well, David, we are so grateful, for not only your friendship with the Rhodes community, but also your participation in this project, and I would love to ask before we close if there is anything else that you would like to share.
DK: Well, you’re welcome. Thanks for having me. I feel honoured, and that was a lovely conversation and I hope someone finds it useful, and if not, you can always click on and there will be more interesting people.
JBG: Well, I find your journey so interesting and I know that the broader community will as well, so, thank you for your time, and I will end our recording there.
